American Family Association on “Hate Crimes” Legislation Coming This Week
Senate ready to vote on “hate crimes” bill
Urgent: Call your senators today to oppose any form of hate crimes legislation
We have confirmation that a vote on the Matthew Shepherd Hate Crimes bill (S.909) will happen this week. It is likely that the bill will be introduced as an amendment to the Defense Authorization Bill. If the Senate approves the Hate Crimes amendment, President Obama will sign it into law.
The Hate Crimes legislation would authorize the Department of Justice to investigate and prosecute certain bias-motivated crimes based on the victim’s actual or perceived sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, or disability. Even more troubling is that S.909 could create special protections for pedophiles. Democrats voted down an amendment to the bill that would have excluded pedophilia and other “sexual orientations” from the definition of “sexual orientation.”
For years, AFA and other pro-family groups have issued warnings about federal Hate Crimes legislation. The reality is that the purpose of this bill is to silence those who speak out against homosexuality. If the legislation passes, pastors could be prosecuted under the federal inducement statute for preaching the biblical view of homosexuality. For example, a person could commit an act of violence against a homosexual individual and blame it on the pastor’s sermon. Similar laws have been used to prosecute religious speech in the U.S. at the state level and abroad.
Take Action!
Enter your ZIP CODE and click “GO” to get the direct telephone number for your two senators, along with suggested talking points for your call. Call your senators today to demand politely, but firmly, that they vote against any attempt on passage of Hate Crimes legislation. Congress has refused to define the term “sexual orientation,” which means that all sexual orientations are protected.
Pastors, it is time to take a stand. Share this information with your members, and ask them to call.
Read the AFA Article Here
My Commentary
1. This is sneaky – they are slipping this in thinking no one will notice
2. This is a language war – what is “sexual orientation” – why not call a spade a spade, this is about homosexuality and preachers preaching against it as sinful
3. We are in a culture war against principalities and dark forces – pray to our Lord, for this is metaphysical in nature
4. We are on a slippery slope to silence the Christian who stands upon the Word of God – persecution is coming subtly and slowly – What will it be like for a believer in 20 years? Erosion doesn’t happen over night!
Above Every Name 
Friend, I respect your right to believe as you please. I (and I believe the vast majority of Americans) will always vigorously defend your right to do so. However, I think a responsible American needs to be well-informed, and there are few talking points that you make that need clarification: (1) the Congress has refused to define sexual orientation because it is already legally defined. All of the 30 aberrations you list are indeed in the DSM-IV, and should be. However, homosexuality is not and hasn’t been for nearly 40 years. The scientific community overwhelming agrees on this point, to the same degree that they agree that Darwinian Natural Selection is the best explanation for the origin of species. There is no need to define sexual orientation as excluding these aberrations because they are already illegal – being homosexual is not and never has been; (2)there is no “federal inducement statute,” never has been and never will be. If you disagree, I challenge you and your friends at the AFA to produce the statute code — because AFA is the only one who is promoting this assertion, while all other sites (such as yours) are merely distributing it. You cannot compare what has happened in Canada to the United States for an important and fundamental reason: Canada has never had the kind of strong first amendment rights, particular of free speech, that the U.S. enjoys. (Canada actually tried at one point to convince the U.S. to block their television transmission signals because 90% of the Canadian population lives within 100 miles of our border and love our culture, but the Canadian government wanted more authority over what Canadians could watch.) That will NEVER happen in the U.S.; no American, liberal or conservative, would stand for it; (3) the AFA knows full well that the Matthew Shepard Act exempts religious bodies from prosecution, or imposes an inability, for teaching their congregants that their faith dictates that homosexuality is immoral, unnatural, and/or inherently wrong. All the bill does is say you cannot call for or incite violence against a particular group of people (in this case, LGBT persons), slander or libel them, etc. because of specifically what they are and no other reason, absent of any wrongdoing; and finally (4) these protections already exist for race, ethnicity, national origin, age, disability, etc. All the Matthew Shepard Act does is extend such protections already in place for decades to LGBT Americans. America has not fallen apart because we protected classes that just several decades ago were disgustingly marginalized. Knowing this, but refusing to acknowledge its truth, is equivalent to AFA and all of its e-mouthpieces saying that its OK to protect all of those other classes, but not gays and lesbians… we are somehow exempt from equal protection under law, even though we are clearly what our courts have deemed to be a “suspect class,” a group historically facing oppression and discrimination. You are also using fear, ignorance, and misinformation to accomplish the goal of enshrining into law second-class citizenship on others. We won’t even bother discussing the other points (e.g. choice v. orientation, hate crimes being more serious in nature because they are directed at a group, and a perceived representative of that group, for purposes of terrorizing and intimidating that group…like using a handgun in the commission of a crime, it is an aggravating circumstance deserving of additional sentencing, separate from that called for by the crime itself.) Thank you for the equal time.
I am glad you wrote Abracadaver. All crime is hate crime. If a person hurts someone for any reason or motivation it is hateful. There is no worst or best motivation.. there simply is sinful people who need to repent and believe in Jesus and turn to a life of loving kindness.
Please do not fool yourself. America has been moving away from a foundation of Christian ethics for many years now to a more practical atheism. As we move to what has been deemed wrong and immoral, calling it righteous behavior while doing it and forsaking the God of the Bible, we doom ourselves. You will watch as Christian will be told to keep their mouths shut and preach in the pulpits of their churches, to not win the lost soul in the street, and when that is done, you will see the Christian slandered and then finally done away with.
As we “progressively” move into this new millennia, Christians will become more and more the object of ridicule and persecution. I dare you to present Jesus as the only way to God, or that homosexuality is a sin, or that Darwin’s lie is destroying morality… when you say to young people that you are a random series of chemical reactions rather than a valuable person created by the hands of a loving God, you destroy a persons origins and his/her true identity. When you tell a person that there are those who are worthless because they are not fit for survival, you devalue personhood.
Hate crimes is a legalization of persecution against people who have thoughts. This is plain and simple. All one has to do is hurt another based on race or homosexuality and blame the preacher… and then it becomes silence the preacher or jail the preacher. This is already happening on the abortion issue. An 80+ year old priest was arrested and jailed for holding a protest against Obama and his stance for abortion at Notre Dame. Do you truly think that this is not going to happen to the preacher who reads Romans 1 or Leviticus 18 and then preaches on these texts? Do you really think that people think like you when it comes to freedom of speech? Don’t fool yourself. People have been trying to shut up and kill the prophets who preach repentence since Isaiah and Jeremiah.
Of course, I believe all these things must take place before the second coming of the Lord. In the last days, according to Scripture, there will be a knowledge explosion (Daniel 9-13), wars and rumors of wars (Matthew 24), wrong will be called right and right will be called wrong, etc.
The question for you is, are you willing to sacrifice your pleasure, die to yourself, repent of your sin, join me and millions of others to fight against the dark forces of this world that states homosexuality is good and true, when in reality it will damn your soul. The true loving thing for me to do is call for people to be rescued from the wrath of God that is coming through repentence and His forgiveness as you believe on His only Son, Jesus the Messiah.
God Bless,
RAP
Thank you for replying to my post by ignoring every posit I made. I’ll do the same to your missive.
I did not ignore what you said. I simply added on to what I said.
You said: “However, I think a responsible American needs to be well-informed, and there are few talking points that you make that need clarification: (1) the Congress has refused to define sexual orientation because it is already legally defined. All of the 30 aberrations you list are indeed in the DSM-IV, and should be. However, homosexuality is not and hasn’t been for nearly 40 years.”
It has been out of the DSM-IV for 40 years. I do not believe homosexuality is a psychosis just like I do not believe lying or murder is a psychosis. But it is in the Book that matters which calls it sinful and an abomination. The fear I have for individuals who practice this behavior without any regret, sorrow, or conviction of sin have a conscience that is seared. Homosexuality is sinful behavior that needs a loving God and loving people to guide and deliver them out of it by Christ’s power and compassion. But those individuals who say I don’t need Jesus or His Father have a proud spirit… and these are the individuals who will turn the legislation on, over and against the minister of God’s Word and Christian who stands for the Word of God.
You said: “There is no need to define sexual orientation as excluding these aberrations because they are already illegal – being homosexual is not and never has been”
I beg to differ. Homosexual acts were illegal before 1962, nationwide by 2003. Because the US was governed by a law based on the Bible, it was illegal to commit fornication and homosexual acts. Where do you think the law against beastiality came from? The Bible. Before 1950 we lived in what I call Bibilical lawfulness/morality passed on through societal norms rather than God-ordained norms… which is why we had a generation rebel against all of this, hence the 60s and 70s and a society debased in immorality. Currently we are watching the demise of our culutre with amorality – there is no right and there is no wrong and when one says there is, they are considered narrow minded or bigotted. Hence, we get laws such as this to persecute people (Christians) for standing against what is deemed ungodly, namely homosexuality. What gives us the right to do such things? Who are we to force a Biblical morality that no one wants down people’s throats? These are good questions… I think instead of force, we should keep in mind the original intent of the writers of the constitution and founders of this nation and keep what has deemed sacred sacred and what is unholy, unholy. Culture is not authority and neither are people’s opinions. The authority comes from God Himself through His Word. That is what gives rights/righteousness.
You said: “Canada has never had the kind of strong first amendment rights, particular of free speech, that the U.S. enjoys. (Canada actually tried at one point to convince the U.S. to block their television transmission signals because 90% of the Canadian population lives within 100 miles of our border and love our culture, but the Canadian government wanted more authority over what Canadians could watch.) That will NEVER happen in the U.S.; no American, liberal or conservative, would stand for it”
I commented on this in my previous post, in which you said I ignored you. Do not think that First Amendment rights are absolute in a nation whose trends are conformin to a system of “no absolutes.” There are moral absolutes and they are all based on a world which blesses and acknowledges God. When one engages in what they deem is right and good by their own opinions, then they are their own God and the Lord is out of the picture and His commandments (meant to keep you safe and satisfied in Him) are despised. Read Romans 1… it is plain and simple what God thinks of Homosexual behavior. Do not sear your conscience into thinking you will escape an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful God. Either you are under His blessing because of repentance and receiving Jesus, or you are under condemnation because you refuse to submit through a proud spirit. When I say this, I say this to myself as well as those whom I shepherd and speak to. This is for all people, because we have all fallen short of the Glory of God (Romans 3) and are in need of redemption (Romans 10).
I read again the rest of your post. It is an impossible road on which the LGBT is on. You are never going to convince people who believe in God and the perfection of His Word that this is a legitimate lifestyle… we are convinced by Scripture that people who choose to engage in homosexual activity need repentence and the love of Christ which only comes through faith and trust in the Son of God. Those who refuse to do so have chosen rebellion against God’s standard and despised His Word. It is an either/or decision. Live for Jesus or live against Him. Those who ignore Christ and the obedience of faith incur condemnation and it is not God who sends people to eternal Hell, it is the individual who decides to despise His free offer of Grace, who sends themselves to eternal Hell.
Choose wisely.
Blessings,
RAP
Abracadaver,
I need for you to justify a few items here.
You wrote: “All of the 30 aberrations you list are indeed in the DSM-IV, and should be.”
Why?
“hate crimes being more serious in nature because they are directed at a group, and a perceived representative of that group, for purposes of terrorizing and intimidating that group…”
Why?
“like using a handgun in the commission of a crime, it is an aggravating circumstance deserving of additional sentencing, separate from that called for by the crime itself.”
Why?
On what authority will you make these claims, especially when you suggest that “Darwinian Natural Selection is the best explanation for the origin of species”?
Can you give us a clear definition of a hate crime and explain why it is worse than other crimes? Why do we need a bill to criminalize that which is alreadya crime?
Can anyone commit hate crimes, or only caucasian males?
Can you tell me why crime is wrong is a Darwinist worldview?
Friend: As I stated in the first line of my initial post, I and I would bet nearly all Americans would fight to the death for your right to believe as you like. You are seeing a boogey-man where none exists. What you are really afraid of is not that you will lose your right to conscience and belief, but that you will lose your influence to marginalize and entire group of Americans based on a variable of their birth. You fear losing control and seeing your worldview no longer reflected in our society. I sympathize with your position; I am able to truly place myself in the shoes of another and see exactly how they are thinking and feeling. It is a shame that most of those with faith, especially of the fundamentalist variety, lack such ability. You would rather proclaim and judge than respond and relate. That is your choice; and I honor it. But I patently reject religious arguments put forth as justification for enshrining legal discrimination against entire classes of persons. The first amendment does not go so far as to protect your right to do so. While I truly appreciate your willingness to allow opposing viewpoints equal time, I simply can’t even find the ground to debate this issue with you. I wish you well in your commitment to your faith, and affirm and support your right to believe and to teach others that your faith condemns homosexuality. That is where my support ends, however. Your willingness to entertain other viewpoints, like most whose minds are locked into dogma and knee-jerk reactionism, will forever remain codified in stone as hard and cold as your heart. While you may admonish me to “choose wisely” all you like, I find such proclamations to be hollow coming from a person who has chosen to elevate St. Paul above his own Savior. “What more have I asked of you, but that you love each other as I first loved you?” “Judge not, for as you judge so shall you be judged by the same measure.”
I find it funny that people will not debate an issue when they foresee that they will lose the debate.
Cold hearted – no –> The most loving thing I did was bring truth to you and God says that if you humble yourself, turn from your wicked ways, He will heal your land. The cold heart is those who don’t offer such redemption.
The Saviour preached repentence and said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life… No one comes to the Father but by me…” and this is not on your terms, but His and His alone. And He says through Paul, that you must repent and believe that God raised Jesus from the dead and also have Him be Lord and Master of your life, making you a slave/servant of His… bought with a price… not to do what you want, not giving you license to behave as you wish… but truly fleeing sexual immorality and embracing Jesus. Paul was not speaking on his own… He was guided by Christ’s Spirit to say what was said…. Paul is not in opposition to Christ.
Judge not… yes judge not and then what does Jesus do… He tells us how to judge correctly. You are judging me and others everytime you make an assertion as you did and you have knee-jerk reactions or else you would not have commented on this blog and you are also locked into a dogma of your own… so these ad hominem arguments do not prove or decide or satisfy the issues.
Puritan Lad had great questions… which I think you saw as unwinable in your epistemological worldview… the basis of morality is that God exists and that morality is based on His Law which you know to be right and good, but suppress to behave as you want.
This is the brutal truth which I had to come under and then submit to and be saved.
The Gospel is offensive for it calls you and me a sinner and then offers good news that we can be made right in the eyes of God by the slain Lamb of God, Jesus Christ who offered Himself up that if you believe in Him, you will be saved.
It always comes with a cost though… to give up something, namely your life and lifestyle. You are to give up this postmodern, evolutionary, homosexualized life and embrace the God of the Bible and His Son, Messiah Jesus who will satisfy your soul… just give up, surrender, wave the white flag and become victorious through the God who fights for you when you do.
Blessings,
RAP
Sodomy was against the law for almost the entire existence of this nation. The court’s reclassification of this most destructive behavior has unleashed a flood of depravity promoted as virtue.
The Orwellian “hate crimes” sham is just another attempt for those in bondage to sin to try to create a fantasy world in which evil is good.
But judgment is coming. And deep, deep inside, you know it.
Straight people have a*sholes, too. Its just like your side to take behavior and equate it to orientation. It is not, and has never been, illegal to BE homosexual. What about this is unclear to you and your ilk? BEHAVIOR DOES NOT EQUAL ORIENTATION.
Why is it that when non-Christians criticize a Christian, its discrimination and religious persecution…. but when Christians do the same thing to non-Christians, its “loving” them? You don’t get to have it both ways. No one is choosing not to debate you because they think they’ll lose; they’re chosing not to address straw man arguments, circular logic, and knee-jerk reactionism. You answer each posit with a question, rather than a direct answer. Responding to a position by demanding that someone explain it to you, rather than researching that posit and responding to it yourself, is the height of intellectual hypocrisy. When you can step in the mental ring and fight at the same weight class as me, then we’ll talk.
Lastly, for the record, I do not find the Christian gospel to be any more offensive than any other creed that is slavishly followed; what I find offensive is any person thinking that their religious belief trumps another person’s legal status. (I also reject the idea that humanity is innately “sinful” but that’s an entirely different discussion.)
Sorry, I know I should consolidate these last comments rather than making several posts….but I thought it important to let RAP know that the LGBT community has no vested interest in whether or not you perceive us to be “normal.” We could honestly care less what your opinion of us is, and we don’t care whether you “bless” our unions or not. What we demand is that your religious beliefs cease taking precedent over our right to equal protection under law, and that your right to believe and worship as you like does not strip us of our right to pursue our own life, liberty and happiness. You may consider us the lowest form of mammal all you like (its pretty clear that you do already, anyway), as long as you grant us the same status as you do yourself and others. Thanks!
Abracadaver,
Did you miss my post? You have made quite a few moral judgments in your comments here. Are you able to justify them? On what authority do you make these claims? I’m waiting…
Oh, also….RAP, please stop trying to revise American history to fit your religious viewpoint. Our founding father absolutely did not develop our Constitution with the Bible and its tenents in mind, and there is no record of such to support your position. “Lighthouses are more useful buildings than churches.” (B. Franklin) “The United States is, in no sense, founded on the Christian religion.” (Pres. G. Washington). “This would be the most perfect of all worlds if there were no religion in it.” (Pres. J. Adams). “Christianity is the most perverse system ever visited upon humanity.” (Pres. T. Jefferson). Time to get up the lies and distortions and start using real ammunition; the truth is the vast majority of our founding fathers, while recognizing the validity and importance of conscience and personal belief, also left their home continent to form a new nation on the back of hundreds of years of religious war and skirmish. They saw more clearly than anyone before or since that government and faith both flourish when they stay they heck out of each other’s business. Government has no business telling the church what it can teach and what it can’t, and the Matthew Shepard Act does not attempt to do so (the AFA and every other fair-minded American who has read the bill knows this; Donald Wildmon is just a vestige of the past 30 years of political history where the far right learned that, like Goebbels, all you have to do is repeat a lie often enough and small minds will believe it). Religion has no business telling government that because its tenents are in conflict with the Constitution, the government must scrap the Constitution and establish it to reflect their religious viewpoint ONLY. C’mon, guys….you’re not THAT simple that you don’t see this. Time for honest debate, not fallacy funtime.
Not being a Christian, PuritanLad, I’m not bound by the same code that you are. That’s the problem with joining a group; you have to submit to groupthink. I choose not to be judged by the standards and tenents of your creed, and therefore I do not acknowlege its “authority.” You, however, have chosen Christianity as the bedrock of your life and your justification for seeking to impose second-class citizenship on others. Therefore, it is appropriate for others to demand that you adhere to the tenents of the faith you are claiming should be the basis of law. I, being a non-Christian, do not have to follow Jesus’ tenents regarding judgment of others because I do not claim to be a Christian. If you don’t want to live up to your creed, don’t blame others for insisting you stand on your word… and don’t be disappointed when they reject your assertion that they should stand on your creed, also. If I don’t claim to be a Christian, then I need not embody Christianity in my argument. You, however, DO.
Abracadaver,
You are only digging a deeper hole. I ask you again, On what authority do you make your moral judgments. You write, “I choose not to be judged by the standards and tenents of your creed, and therefore I do not acknowlege its “authority.” That’s obvious, but doesn’t answer the question. I am asking you what “standards and tenents” that you do honor. By what standard do you make the claims that you are making? Are they merely opinions? Then why do you say that I have to embody Christianity in my argument (which I do, but that is another issue).
Why should certain types of behavior be criminalized? Why should certain people not be second class citizens? What creed do you stand on, and why should I accept it?
These are questions that Christians can readily answer. I’va asked them to you now three times, and have yet to get an answer.
Abracadaver,
It is clearly you who is distorting American History (or else you are drinking the Kool-Aid of someone else who did. Can you provide the source for these quotes? I doubt it. These presidents NEVER said these thints.
As for the first quote, the only other source is a liberal blogger that attribute this to John Adams. More than likely, it’s made up out of thin air, just like your others.as for the second quote, it’s the only one that has any historical basis, but your sources are messed up. Atheists and Revisionist cannot even agree who which president said this (some attribute this saying to John Adams). The fact that neither president ever uttered these words. They are a quote from the Treaty of Tripoli (article 11). Both Washington and Adams acknowledged the Christian foundation of America.
The last two quotes just like the first one, do not exist.
Now for some real quotes.
George Washington
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”
–George Washington in a speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779
“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
John Adams
The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” –October 11, 1798
Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
Thomas Jefferson
“I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.”
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]
While the last two were not orthodox Christians, they were not atheists or deists, and accepted the moral principles of the Bible.
Now you may believe as you wish, but lets don’t make up stuff in an attempt to give some historical justification for your sandy ground.
I can make just as many quotes as you…. except all of mine can be traced to sources other than the oxymoronic “Liberty Forum.” But, hey, I’m not really complaining…. as much as I dislike intellectual lightweights who insist you do their research for them in order to prove a point, I can keep ’em coming all day…..
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of…Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.”
From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)
George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)
John Adams, the country’s second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers ‘noble and gallant achievements” but among the clergy, the “pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces”. Late in life he wrote: “Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!”
It was during Adam’s administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that “the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.”
From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.
Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:”I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian.” He referred to the Revelation of St. John as “the ravings of a maniac” and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained.”
From:
Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” — Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)
James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”
From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.
Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, “That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words.” In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally “denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian.” When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised “to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God.” Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those “written in the great book of nature.”
From:
Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)
True Thomas Paine was not religious. I will grant you that… not a Christian by any stretch of the imagination.
True Thomas Jefferson was a Deist and Ethan Allen as well.
However,
You stated: “George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)”
A quote directly from http://www.borndigital.com/founders.htm
In fact, all of your quotes are from this page. Did you just cut and paste to show your intellectualism. This is not research. I can do that… Is this what is intellectual to you?
Why would you betray yourself so easily and why would you insult people as you do?
We are having a good conversation here. Please don’t insult when you feel cornered or like you are losing a small battle. What needs to happen is simply find your info and present it. Stop using language of hate here.
But to give you the benefit of the doubt, we will go to the texts which you have cut and paste and take a look.
On my shelf, being a historian and theologian myself, have copies of the different prayers of the Presidents. George Washington was no Deist, but a Christian. Deists do not believe in a personal God, but one who winds up the clock and lets it tick with no interaction. Washington prayed my friend… strong Christian prayers.
In one of my books, The Writings of George Washington by John C. Fitzpatrick, Washington states, “You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ.” This was to Indian chiefs in Deleware in 1779.
Washington was definitely Christian.
Next:
John Adams: “The highest glory of the American Revolution was this, it connected in one indissoluble bond, principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.” July 4, 1821
Now, you will find people trying to discredit these quotes as always because they want to battle what is true and right and what is accurate in American History, because they hate God and would rather be apart of a anti-Christian nation, or whatever… but these founders definitely said these things… you want another.
John Adams – “We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!” from my own library on John Adams
-and-
“The Christian religion, as I understand it, is the brightness of the glory and the express portrait of the character of the eternal, self-existent, independent, benevolent, all powerful and all merciful creator, preserver, and father of the universe, the first good, first perfect, and first fair. It will last as long as the world.” Letter to Benjamin Rush
Should I keep going…
James Madison – you shouldn’t even touch James Madison with the rubish of anti-Christian character and belief. He was stronger than all of them.
You pasted a quote which is very accurate: “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”
He was speaking to state induced religion, phariseeical, believe my way or die religion. But this in no way demonstrates that he was not a Christian.
I agree with that quote and I am definitely a Christian.
Religious bondage does shackle – you cannot force religion on anyone which is what Europe was doing and the Great American Experiment tackled. Freedom of Religion, not from Religion. It was meant to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government.
Madison understood Jesus was about a relationship, personal, loving, gentle and compassionate. Madison was a Christian and historians know this quite well. He understood that people generalized the term “christian” to fit anything and hurt anyway they wanted to the true Christian identity of chidlren of God. Selfish people will use language, such as “Christian,” to do what they want and sell a bill of goods or fruit that will always hurt and destroy.
This is why Paul states through Christ’s spirit that there are those in the church, calling themselves Christian, but are acutally wolves devouring the weak. And this is why there are those in the church who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. This is why within every Christian church there are wheat and tares, sheep and goats, which Jesus will separate on the last day throwing the tares into the unquenchable fire because of their unbelief while the wheat enjoy eternal life… because they truly believe.
This is what Madison was speaking to. He was not denying Christianity. He was denying the people and the institutions that used Christianity as they assaulted the people with their shackles of religion, rather than a love and liberty given to all people, which was endowed by their Creator, God of Heaven and His Son, Jesus.
From doctorsenator.com – “Religion is the basis and Foundation of Government…. We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” – James Madison, June 20, 1785.
Should we look to the buildings of D.C. next?
If you look close, every building has Christian symbols… including the Ten Commandments, Moses, Bible verses, etc., etc., etc.
The founders were majority Christians, minority Deists and agnostics.
With that said, I will grant you this. Culture does protrude into the psyche of men. So being a product of the Enlightenment, they will say things that represents a person of the times of the Enlightenment. I have said things and written things, and preached things with language and verbage on par with the postmodern milieu I find myself in. Do I agree with those things now? No. Sometimes I must retract what I say, because it does not fall in line with the Bible. Do these men always say or maintain “perfect” Christian orthodoxy? Who does? I haven’t. But they believed in Jesus and went to churches that preached Jesus and sought His counsel when founding this great nation. I can live with that.
Can you?
I suspect you cannot. From what I have seen, you want a revisionist history, not an accurate history, because you feel threatened on some level what it would mean for you to say, “Yes, this naton is founded on Christian principles and Biblical precepts.” What is so hard about looking into that past, which is recorded for all to see, and say this. It is the same reason you don’t want to repent of your own sin and become a disciple of Christ. You are threatened by the God of this universe… which you should be, since you stand condemned by Him at the moment, as I did as well. But you have a chance now to fall under the umbrella of His love, like I have and others have, but repenting and believing in His Son, Messiah Jesus.
Will you do this? Please do this for your eternal sake, give up and love Jesus. Who cares about all the rest of the junk being presented in our arguments… love Christ and be forgiven friend. Repent of your sin and believe.
This is not hate speech.. it is love speech.
If a young boy were in the middle of the road and I rushed at him to save him from being crushed by a car and he turned to me and said stop hating me man, stop trying to make me conform to your way of life by walking on the sidewalk, wouldn’t you consider him foolish? Wouldn’t it be loving for me to scream at him, “Get out of the road before you die!!!!” Wouldn’t it be loving of me to explain to him the dangers of walking in the middle of the road? That is loving.
It is even more loving what Jesus did… he pushed that boy out of the way and was crushed by the car for him.
Jesus did this on a Cross for those who believe in Him. He atoned for sin and His act has the power to cover your sin too and deliver you from all unrighteousness, making you a child of the King.
Don’t walk away from your computer without thinking eternally. Is it worth it?
Blessings,
RAP
Dude, you AGAIN miss the point: if all you’re going to do is a cut-and-paste job (i.e., let SOMEONE ELSE do your research for you, in order to prove to you that THEY are wrong), then there are far better sources than the AFA and the Liberty Forum. The sources are culled from wide ranges of academia and peer reviewed. What do you and Puritan have besides propaganda, plagiarism, historical revisionism, and a dull sword to beat others over the head with? Get this, Friend: you are entitled to your religious beliefs! 100% You do not have the right to see them codified into law in order to create OR MAINTAIN institutions which deny your fellow citizens equal protection and enjoyment. Your time in this life, in this nation, is done in this regard. Enjoy your freedom to be as much of a loving hypocrite as you like. I promise I won’t petition to have your churches closed or to have your marriages declared illegal. Deal?
Oh, my goodness… you know, I probably haven’t earned the right to a follow-up post here, nor an answer to the question it contains, but I must ask: why are ALL of the sites that Christians refer to only exclusively Christian in thought and fabric? Even in academia, there are multiple disciplines and persons of all backgrounds, inclinations, cultures, disciplines, and yes, even faiths! All of these diverse people review each other’s work in the context of the scientific method in order to reach acceptance within their community, both inter- and intra-discipline. That is, of course, except the charlatan intellectuals, usually of the Christian faith variety, who scream discrimination and fascism and Nazi-like silencing when their peers wholly reject their work because its patently unscientific. “www.doctorsenator.com” indeed! The man was only a CANDIDATE for office (even in the darkest days of Bush I and II, we almost never elect the fringe loons of any color or stripe), and he’s a “naturopathic” doctor. I smell self-misrepresentation in order cover the stench of the rot beneath the glossy cover; hey, look…. another pithy metaphor for 1500 years of Christianity!
The rage you feel, the desire to try to justify your lifestyle is misplaced. You won’t address your sense of despair and worthlessness by lashing out against Christians or against God.
You will address it by turning to him, and accepting his free offer of forgiveness and love. A full, masculine, fatherly love, from the one who created you in his image, not the twisted, rotting, death-stench chimera that has caught you in its claws.
Pray that he has called you. Turn to him. Cry out to him. Turn to the light. For even this very night your soul may be required of you.
Abracadaver,
Why do you question the source of my “cut and paste” quotes? I have many of the books from where these quotes were taken. You attributed quotes to our founding fathers that they never said, and you have the guts to question my sources? You accuse me of not doing research? Please explain why you posted lies about the founding fathers (or quoted someone else who did). At least my research brought out true quotes, not some made up out of thin air.
Furthermore, one does not have to look hard to discover the Christian foundations of America. Why don’t you Google and read the following documents?
The Mayflower Compact
The First Charter of Virginia
The Second Charter of Virginia
The Third Charter of Virginia
The Concords of Virginia
Why don’t you look up William Blackstone’s exposition on Leviticus, which is what our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution are based upon? All of these documents are readily available online. Let’s see if you can do some real research.
On a different front, we are getting offtrack. You still haven’t answered any of the questions from my first comment. By what authority will you make the claims that you made in your original post?
Correction:
The Concords of Connecticut
Dom: The fear you feel, the desire to try to justify your mental illness is misplaced. You won’t address your sense of terror and imagined moral superiority by lashing out against homosexuals or the Rule of Law from which all freedom flows.
You will address it by turning to psychotherapy, and accepting its free offer of healing and self-actualization. A full, high-voltage, bilateral series of ECT treatments from a rational, well-educated physician and scientist, not the twisted, rotting, death-stench chimera called KKKristianity that has caught you in its claws.
Pray that you have health insurance to cover the cost of this clearly needed treatment. If not, Turn to Medicaid. Cry out to the department of public welfare. Turn to the light of sanity, not the darkness of superstition. For even this very night your mind may be required of you, AND YOU WILL BE FOUND LACKING.
You said in a previous post: “as much as I dislike intellectual lightweights who insist you do their research for them in order to prove a point, I can keep ‘em coming all day”
You said now in your last post: “and imagined moral superiority by lashing out against homosexuals… Turn to the light of sanity, not the darkness of superstition.”
Duh, wha? Ah we dupid? Duh, duh, duh… happy buhday… ;)
Please… everyone has an opinion and a theory and a debate… keep it nice.
I believe the hardest thing in this culture is to convince someone that they are a sinner in need of a Savior who is loving and kind… people do not believe they are in the wrong against an almighty God.
Friend, homosexuality is a sin and it needs to be repented of.
Any person who wants to wreck the institution of marriage because they want “equal status” is beyond the pale. Marriage is a representation of the Gospel… the husband (Christ figure) dies for his wife daily and the wife (the church figure) lovingly submits to her husband’s leadership so he can die for her and so on and so on.
So making homosexual marriage legal is like having poop on a pop-sickle stick… it is perverse and sickening.
Homosexuality is sin. It needs to be repented of or the wrath of God will be upon you. This is not supersticion as you will soon see when Jesus comes or you die. Believe friend for the sake of your soul… what Dom is doing is presenting perfect love to you and well as myself and PL.
Believe before it is too late.
Blessings,
RAP
PuritanL: Above all, I truly appreciate your willingness to remain on-topic; even if the topic is of your choosing and dressed up to appear to be a retort. RAP: Your gentleness of spirit shows through clearly, even when you’re retort is pointed. My Mom would like you; she walks the walk, too.
We’ve reached the point that comes in all cerebral sparrings where the participants know that they’re evenly matched. I’ve found that its usually at that time that both sides realize that they can produce cite and source, the majority of it valid and that which isn’t ‘spot-on’ can be clarified or amplified by another source. In truth we both know that there are certainly men and women of faith, of all races and cultural reference points, who are thoughtful, reasonable people. There doesn’t seem to be discrimination of any sort in the natural order when it comes to bestowing gifts and talents, which I’ve always found quite humbling, actually. We could hurl research, rhetoric, and results of late-night bed reading at each other for as long as we find it entertaining and we’d be no further along. What’s a reasonable rebel to do? (Yes, you’re both as much rebels as I am, don’t even try to deny it; its a fitting and noble role that the Creator chooses for very special people.)
That being said, there is simply too much shadow-boxing and outright dishonesty on your side of this discussion for me. The fear I feel when we begin swinging too far to that way of thought is, I imagine, akin to the fear your side is currently feeling as you watch this issue slip away from your historical influence, even as the “ick” factor surrounding homosexuality pretty much remains intact. Even Bill Mahar, in his film ‘Religulous,’ interviews Dr. Francis Collins as introduces him as the “Head of the U.S. Human Genome Project.” I was immediately stunned that this man, whom I admit to admiring on a certain level for his commitment to reasonable debate on religion, didn’t do his research well. Dr. Collins and the religious right promote him as the Head of the U.S. Human Genome Project, our contribution to a 13-year international collaborative. However, the distinction belongs to Ari Patrinos, former head of the Office of Biological and Environmental Research. Dr. Collins directed the National Institutes of Health National Human Genome Research Institute efforts. Bill Mahar fell for the propaganda; I feel bad for him now.
There is certainly no shortage of posturing and lack of integrity on my side, either. But the level of dishonesty on your side seems to be calculatedly deliberate. “doctorsenator” also likes to promote himself as “doctorcounselor” (he has no education, training or background asa counselor of any kind; he’s an electrical engineer who is trying to promote new age beliefs as a brand of legitimate medicine so as to wrestle yet more Christian control over science.) Do you really think this kind of realpolitik isn’t obvious?
Thanks for the discussion. It would interesting to meet both of you in person and have coffee. I hope that when I get married, you won’t be outside protesting and ruining the day for my family & friends… although, ‘rage’ notwithstanding, we’re actually a pretty happy bunch. We’d just make our own signs that say, “God DATES Fags” and have a good laugh about it.
DOM: Shove your ad hominem attacks and pussy piety where an archaeologist couldn’t find them until the carrion had their natural way. That sh*t is trite and formulaic, and an insult to the character and flavor of this discussion pre- your appearance. While I admit to a certain perverse pleasure in replying in kind, its an empty and hollow victory because it lacks integrity. As to my ‘rage’ I grant you even one week to live life in my shoes, and if you still don’t understand its origin (it most certainly isn’t rebellion against my Creator; how stupid would that be), I will gladly refund Jesus my misery.
Looks like we both posted within 1 minutes of each other, RAP. Thanks (I guess) for yet another (mostly) reasonable response. However, I think I’ll rescind the offer of coffee and discussion… I have a real problem with people who have a vested interest in seeing me believe exactly as they do, and using fear as a direct weapon to do so, and calling it “love.”
I know there is no more “love” in your motivation than there is in mine, because I’m honest enough with myself to know the amount of and capacity for love in my heart. My internal compass, my values, inform me perfectly well what the majesty of perfect love looks, feels, sounds, and behaves like. Friend, neither you nor I are embodying it; I’m just the only one honest enough to admit it.
I’m off to find another topic; I’m actually much more interested in Eric Holder’s brief filed on behalf of the government re DOMA, and holding the Obama administration accountable for its hateful and unncessary rhetoric (when the WSJ and the NYT both agree on a point, you know its a valid one).
Long life, peace and prosperity. I’m out.
Abra… this is true love. Warning someone of a horrible condemnation to come is a loving thing to do. Fearing God is a good and right thing to do. Proverbs 1:7 states that the Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom. And all of Jesus’ teachings and the apostles’ teachings warn us of coming wrath, so the correct response to you is to warn you and love you away from your lifestyle and have you join me… it is not hateful… it is perceived as hateful because there is always bad news before the good news.
Bad News: You and I are sinners in need of a Savior.
Good News: Jesus died and rose again on the third day bearing the sins of those who believe. If you believe, you are covered and in right stadning before God.
Now after that you walk according to His ways.
I don’t know you… but if I did not care for you… I would not bother with sharing my deepest yearning for people… that they believe and experience Jesus on a personal level like myself, free from sin and the world, hoping in a most heavenly abode that is beyond description, a mansion in glory land… and you can have it. If that is not loving, I don’t know what is.
Blessings,
RAP
You’re right about two things, RAP: (1) “that” isn’t loving; and (2) you don’t know what loving is. At last, we concur.
Abracadaver,
Are you ever going to answer my questions, or are you going to keep beating up strawmen.
For the record, I am no big fan of Francis Collins. While his scientific writings are quite interesting, he certainly cannot be considered orthodox in his Christianity. He is more of a product of “Christian pop culture” than one who espouses sound doctrine.
Methinks you really don’t want an intellectual discussion on this subject. If you did, you would actually engage in some conversation, which includes answering my questions. So far, all that you’ve concoted is a load of unsubstantiated assertions.
Then only God can help you friend.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (- Jesus, Mark 16.16)
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (- Jesus, John 3.18)
Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2.11-12)
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned. (Titus 3.10-11)
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly… (2 Peter 2.4-6)
And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 15 Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. (Jesus, Matthew 10.14-15)
I am done with you. May the Lord open your eyes… I have done my part, all I can to convince and compell… it is God’s work in you now.
May the God of Peace grant you repentance and forgiveness,
RAP
Hmm. I think its your soul you better be praying for, RAP. “Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud. ” Proverbs 16:18-19.
May the aforementioned imaginary, spoiled cosmic brat who insists on stomping his jealous feet in small-minded rage when anyone dares question you, forgive you your swelled sense of so-called superiority.
“Early in life I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility. I chose the former and have seen no reason to change.” (Frank Lloyd Wright.) Right on, brother! Now THAT’S the way I’m going to choose!
I guarantee you’re not “done with me” RAP…. I could sit here and post quotes from the Khmer Rouge and you’d still reply, because your kind of proud, arrogant faith fanatic simply must have the last word. I’ll wait patiently for it. If its not full of vitriol that you were unable to convince yet another reasonable person that your unknown, unseen, unheard, unfound, unprovable “god” is the way to go, then I might actually let you have the last word.
No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you. But I have understanding as well as you, I am not inferior to you:yea, who knoweth not such things as these.[Job 12: 2,3.] 3.Wherefore are we counted as beasts, and reputed vile in your sight? [Job 18-3]
“The Christian churches and Christianity have nothing in common save in name: they are utterly hostile opposites. The churches are arrogance, violence, usurpation, rigidity, death; Christianity is humility, penitence, submissiveness, progress, life.” (Geez, even a communist was
able to see this truth…doesn’t bode well for you, dude….)
“The Christian churches and Christianity have nothing in common save in name: they are utterly hostile opposites.”
I beg to differ… The True Christian Church is the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ, that which is being Built by God Himself. To hate the Church is to hate Christ’s body and His Spouse. Very dangerous ground. Now, the church is nowhere perfect, but it is being perfected… it is full of needy people, which I am, for I need Jesus, who submit to Christ and perform charity and evangelism, which I do quite regularly… even here with you. I perform charity by feeding the poor and helping rebuild homes and churches that are falling into disrepair and have people who are poor and cannot afford to do this on their own… our churches help in benevolent ways like this all over.
What kind of benevolence do you do? I truly want to know?
The evangelistic zeal we have at the churches I have been apart of have been very focused. Mexico, China, Japan, Canada, India. My youth just got back from Mississippi in missions, where we did a mixture of both evangelism and benevolent charity for the community. Many were blessed. My church just sent a mission team off to Taiwan in evangelistic zeal. I use this blog to persuade people that Jesus is the only way to God and to repent of sin and believe in Him for eternal life. This is what Jesus commanded His followers to do. Matthew 28 – Go therefore into all of the world, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey my commandments… and surely I will be with you until the end of the age.
Brother, I did a plank check before I tried to converse with you and remove the speck out of your eye. I know for a fact what my sins are… I lust, I have greed, I am envious, I hate people at times, I can be proud and hurtful with my tongue… I do know my arrogant ways, but I have been washed in the blood of Calvary where the Lord Jesus gave Himself for me and those who will believe in Him… This is not arrogance, but sincerity of truth… Jesus will give you new life if you would believe.
Christianity is completely tied to Christ’s church, which He is perfecting every day. Surely it can be too liberal where people are out of balance on their graciousness, forgetting about the justice of God, allowing people to do as they please (license) … and sure it can be out of balance with justice, not allowing for grace when someone is wornged (legalism)…
Love covers a multitude of sins… and Christ’s love covers them all. His love can cover your sins too, just like PL and Dom, and mine.
The great sin is not homosexual behavior, it is rejecting the Son of God, it is unforgiveable…
My good friend, Jayme, Puritan Lad knows him since PL is my brilitant brother in law… anyway Jayme is a recovering homosexual. He is now married with two children… he has confided in me and told me that this sin is absolutely choice, just like adultery or fornication. He says he has the desire at times, but just like Paul, he beats his body into submission under the Lordship of Christ. And with Christ, he has the power to destroy sin… and you can have this power too.
It is a beautiful and wonderful thing to be under the Benevolent God of the universe. Jesus makes you co-heirs with Him… it is awesome indeed.
Blessings,
RAP
It didn’t take a behavioral specialist to see that your friend is suffering from internalized homophobia. It was the only possible explanation for him matching you in intelligence but not in gentleness of spirit.
Your brother-in-law will spend the rest of his life taking the self-hatred he feels and has learned (that’s right, LEARNED) to reinforce at the feet of his new oppressors and will justify spewing it on others who “refuse” to hate themselves for being homosexual. I’ve been around the block enough times to know the stench of self-loathing when I “hear” it.
Now he doesn’t need to wonder why he was ignored during this conversation. Nothing is so sad and reviling as a c*cksucker who CHOOSES to “beat himself into submission” and simply can’t stand it if someone else won’t hate themselves as much as he needs to hate himself.
Good luck with THAT particular mental aberration. Keep an eye on his kids, though; your family might have some huge problems there.
In closing, it doesn’t take a god to be “good.” A list of ‘benevolence’ that I practice regularly:
(1) Shelter volunteer with Light of Life Ministries (run by the Christian and Missionary Alliance Church);
(2) Allegheny County Bar Association’s Pro Bono Project (legal services for the indigent);
(3) Pittsburgh AIDS Task Force Pro Bono Legal Project (legal services for those facing HIV/AIDS issues);
(4) Volunteer with GLENDA (Gay & Lesbian Neighborhood Development Association), an organization which partners with other non-profits for the purposes of simultaneously improving our communities and introducing the volunteer community to its LGBT neighbors.
As a footnote, the Christian and Missionary Alliance allows me, an out homosexual, to volunteer with their shelter because they admit that they have no other congregants or volunteers who (in their words) “minister so effectively to the forgotten men of our shelter; who treat them with such dignity, humanity, and love, and who see them as an equal brothers.”
I guess it doesn’t take a divinity degree, or even acceptance by others, to show true love and compassion to another. I commend the staff of Light of Life Ministries for putting their historical prejudices aside and acknowledging that, when it comes to doing their work, its best to accept whomever best fulfills the mission that their god sends to them to do the job, even though I do not embody their ideals and their faith.
True American democracy at its finest.
But note this…
Good works will not earn you a place with God. All people have tried to earn their way to God through many means (sacraments, baptism, feeding poor people, etc.)… In fact Scripture states that all of our own righteous deeds are like filthy minstrual rags before God… they do not please Him. What pleases God is a clean and pure heart that worships and trusts Him…
The only way one can have a clean heart is by receiving Christ, His Son into it. The only way one can worship in Spirit and in Truth is to have the Spirit of Christ worshipping through you and Have Jesus within because He is the Truth. Without these, all of your goodness is for naught… and you still stand condemned. In fact, Martin Luther says, which I agree with, that our good works are actually mortal sins, worse sins because they cause us to boast in ourselves, saying, “See God, look what I did. I cast out devils in your name, I fed the poor, I raised the dead, I helped my landlady with her garbage, I did this, I did that…” – all good works, but not works that merit eternal life. My goodness before Christ was still a road to Hell. My goodness after Christ is not my work being done, but His work through me. Therefore, I do not stand and say, “Look what I have done!” but “Look what Jesus has done for and through me.” I boast in Christ, not myself.
So above, when I pointed out the things that my youth group did and I did, it really was not us, but Christ through us.
Loving kindness is always good. However, it is True Loving Kindness that I am after, not an artificial aberation, or illusion… The Truth is in Christ alone.
So, no matter what you have done good or bad, without Jesus, you stand condemned before God.
The Gospel is a hard message… Scripture says it is an offense. I agree. It offended me the first time I heard it, for it called me a sinner and evil by nature. Then God shaped and fashined me to accept what the Truth was, and then how to become right before His eyes by receiving Christ, believing in Him as Savior and Lord, believing Him to have died and risen again on the third day by the Hand of the Father.
You can have this… I trust that God will do with you what is right and pleasing to Himself. My plea for you is to trust in Christ and believe in Him and His Holy Word.
On PL:
He had great questions for you. Name calling never gets anywhere. He wanted to know your epistemological worldview and what basis of authority you derive it from. I thought they were fair questions which should have been answered.
Repent and Believe in Christ friend… it is the only way for satisfaction in the here-after.
Blessings,
RAP
Abracadaver,
Not only have you failed repeatedly to justify your assertions, but you continue to make more unsubstantiated assertions. You now resort to personal attacks, which is what people usually do when they cannot come up with an answer. You don’t like my arguments, and yet you cannot answer them. Therefore, you either presume to know my motive (which you don’t), or else make one up out of thin air (just like the founding father’s quotes you listed). You don’t now the difference between “love” and “sentiment”. You aren’t alone. Many Christians make the same error.
You claim that my “homophobia” is learned behavior. That is quite a claim for a materialist to make. What makes your hatred of “homophobia” justified? Do you have “homophobiaphobia”? (Both sides can make up phobias and call each other names, but that won’t get us anywhere.) Maybe I just have the “homophobia” gene. If not, then what? Of what material is “homophobia” made, or any behavior for that matter? How do you account for moral judgments in your worldview? Are they material in nature? Are they the product of genetics? Physics? Are that universal and absolute, or are that conventions and opinions? I’m still waiting for an answer, yet haven’t recieved one.
You then tell us about your “good” works. But why are they to be considered “good”? How many hours must one volunteer in order to be considered “good”? Does “good” make up for our “bad” works? What if God demands perfection? What do we do then?
Your attempts at establishing a moral judgment on anything is proof that you are well aware of God’s existence and His standards. I would ask you to consider if your good works are enough to overcome your sinfulness as you stand before Him in judgment. It is God alone who establishes right and wrong, not you or I. If you disagree, then I need to know what right/wrong or good/evil is.
Unless you show some progress in actually having a discussion, I won’t post anymore on the subject for two reasons.
1.) You still haven’t answered any question that I’ve posed.
2.) You seered conscience is inflaming anger, and hardening your heart to the truth.
I have had my say, but would rather have a reasonable discussion than a bickering contest.
RAP: I didn’t ask for a discourse on good and bad, the value of my benevolence, etc. You implied by direct assertion that I am an uncharitable person. When shown that your assumption was baseless, you picked the typical Christian response: minimize and/or totally discard any good a nonbeliever does, because it alone is “rags in the sight of God.”
Therefore, you are impossible to reason with (as most of your Christian counterparts are) and your need to judge and condemn is more important to you than the good that others do in the world, simply because they don’t agree with you theologically.
I honestly could care less if I am condemned in your sight or that of your god. I believe in love and I live my life accordingly. If I choose not to believe in your mystery, that is my choice. If you choose to devalue anything and everything about my life, as sacred as yours though it may be, that is your choice.
At the end of the day, my head rests easy knowing that I am just as worthy, just as valuable, and have just as much to contribute to humanity as you do; the two differences between us being that I don’t require others to believe as I do in order to receive my love, and my compassion for others less fortunate than I am doesn’t come with an unsolicited opinion, a sermon meant to prove to that I am somehow superior to them, or in fact any condition whatsoever. You cannot say the same.
Again… you make invalid assertions to my motives. I never invalidated what you have said. I have come into an awareness that you see only what you want to see. Therefore, you automatically make you and I out to be adversaries when we are not.
I am simply stating a valid, viable Truth that whatever we do in the sight of God, whether good or bad, cannot earn His favor. We cannot merit God’s pleasure.
You have made a grave mistake as to my motives on superiority. You must learn to listen… or read. I never said I was better than you. In fact I have stated that I am just like you… a fallen human being, sinful and selfish, proud and arrogant… in need of a Savior whose name is Jesus. He alone can is the worthy one, He alone is the One whom we are to give worth and praise and honor. What I have stated is that all of our works, yours mine and the worlds is nothing when it comes to eternal life in Heaven with God.
I am inferior and count myself as nothing. I believe in Jesus who is Superior and has given me new life, with which I can now cry Abba, Father. My sins, my unrighteousness, my good and my best are now no longer tropihies on the wall, but rubbish at the foot of the bloody Cross on which my Savior died.
What I am demonstrating for you is that I care about you and even though I do not know you, I love you.
What I desire for you is abundant life. And that life can only be found in Jesus. You must repent of sin (lust, homosexual acts, pride, selfishness, malice, hate, etc. etc. etc.) and turn and trust the One who died on a Cross. Jesus’ death has the power to cover your sins against an almighty God. You can have that love… it is a free gift of Grace.
I know this does not make sense to you, but that is why you must trust in faith… not sight, or physical senses… but a reasonable faith. Look in the mirror, everytime you look in the mirror you will remember this from now on… you were created in the image of God, and God sent His Son, Jesus to redeem His Image.
The tug of war in your soul is happening as we speak… You want this love, because you have never felt this love before. You have had friendships and maybe parental love (maybe not), but you have never had a God sized love… SURRENDER like I did!
Blessings and Love to you,
RAP
As I said, and still stand by…you CANNOT say the same.
The only god-size love I’m interested in surrendering to comes with the choice of cut or uncut….ask your brother-in-law, he knows what I’m talking about.
Like Pontius Pilate, I wash my hands of you. Remember this conversation when you wake up one day and wonder why society has returned to feeding your ilk to the lions.
Ending Post-Script:
I don’t want my last post to seem like a threat to you; if anything, it is a “warning” offered with “love.” (Sounding familiar?)
I am one of the few people I know who is even willing, let alone able, to have a discussion with persons of strong faith. Coming from a strongly religious household (according to a test I once took), being the son of a retired AF chaplain, I like to say that I made an informed decision to follow a path other than Christianity. I still carry many vestiges and remnants of my upbringing; how could I not? Or any of us?
That being said, there are plenty of people out there who do not share my tender feelings for your particular lost subsect, even though they 100% are committed to the principle of your right to be as deluded as you wish. Freedom of conscience is deeply imprinted on the American mind, and will not disappear anytime soon. What is about to disappear, however, is people who ungratefully use their right to conscience and belief to deny others civil rights based in the very protections and freedoms that they themselves enjoy.
No small number of Americans, of all orientations, backgrounds, ages, levels of education, etc. are getting really sick of hearing how worthless everyone but you is, and that you’re only two steps ahead by virtue of a modern interpretation of an ancient blood ritual meant to appease a wrathful patriarch. The KNOWN percentage of those who reject religious belief and practice in their own lives is approaching 18%. As they become more politically influential, you will see lots of others “come out of the closet,” so to speak. You are on the verge of dealing with a force much, much larger, more vocal, and more organized and well-funded than the puny 3% of LGBT people in this country, and they’re really fed up with you hogging the stage.
The precise reason you and your compatriots fear the Matthew Shepard Act is not because you’re all foaming at the mouth for a chance to beat up a f*g and get away with it; the vast majority of you are peaceful, decent people. What you fear is that you will be silenced by law, because you know that what I say above is true.
Your right to believe as you wish, to protest as you wish, to teach as you wish (within your religious organizations) will remain intact. Your ability to put it in the public square with language that denigrates others or seeks to marginalize them is about to vanish. Unfortunately, you can’t share the message of your religion without calling others the equivalent of muck, and that’s a message that many aren’t interested in hearing and think they shouldn’t have to.
My warning to you is this: you are bringing any discrimination or oppression, perceived or actual, on yourselves. (Still sounding familiar? That’s right, this has all been said to our side for a long time, now. Funny where you find truth, isn’t it?) It isn’t right; it isn’t justified, but just like homophobia and bigotry, its a reality and its not going away, especially if you keep poking it with a stick.
PPS – In case you’re wondering, both of my parents are loving and supportive. My father, a retired protestant chaplain, has always been against “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” Both of my parents support civil unions for gays and lesbians, even if it means eliminating “legal” heterosexual marriage and replaces it with civil unions for all; which, by the way, is the logical outcome of this particular cultural/constitutional battle line your side has drawn. Marriage will become an exclusively religious institution in the U.S.; but it still won’t achieve your objective. There are no small number of churches that will marry homosexuals. What a waste of time and “love,” and all by putting us on the “slippery slope” to eroding the equal protection for everyone….legal protections you are too dim or too fanatical to realize actually PROTECT your freedom of religion.
Again… you will say that society will not feed “our ilk” to the lions and then here you say that it will happen.
I rest my case on hate crimes… it is a dangerous slope my friend and you are on it.
RAP
You said: “The precise reason you and your compatriots fear the Matthew Shepard Act is not because you’re all foaming at the mouth for a chance to beat up a f*g and get away with it; the vast majority of you are peaceful, decent people. What you fear is that you will be silenced by law, because you know that what I say above is true.”
What you said is true. Christians have always been outnumbered… and they are the only ones in the nation who are truly persecuted… gays are not persecuted in this nation, but rejoiced in and approved of. You need to read Romans 1. There is only death and destruction for the homosexual and I don’t wish that on you at all. Clean up the closet rather than come out of it.
You said: “Your right to believe as you wish, to protest as you wish, to teach as you wish (within your religious organizations) will remain intact.”
We will disobey man-made laws that deny the Word of God and Christ’s commands to go ye therefore into all the world and proclaim the good news that Jesus came and died for sinner that if they believe in Him they will have eternal life. So we will not remain behind walls and bars… we will stand up continually as we have done for 2000 years fighting the good fight of faith and running the race that is set before us… loving our enemies, blessing those who persecute us, remaining steadfast in God’s love by the blood of Jesus.
We will not lay down and we will not give in, bu persevere in charity and in love, restraining what is evil and debased and persuading people like yourself that Christ is what we are to live for and in.
You said: “Unfortunately, you can’t share the message of your religion without calling others the equivalent of muck, and that’s a message that many aren’t interested in hearing and think they shouldn’t have to.”
You are right. Many in this society do not want to hear that they are dreadfully sinful… they want to hear sweet things about themselves, because they are proud and have itching ears. Jeremiah and Isaiah dealt with these people. Jesus dealt with these people. Paul dealt with these people. Martin Luther dealt with these people. John Calvin dealt with these people. Billy Graham dealt with these people. The church today still deals with these people and will until Christ comes again to redeem His beloved wife, the Church.
And if we are persecuted so be it and if we are martyred for giving the good news of Christ’s love for you and others… so be it. I will die and either by my words or my blood people will see and witness that there is no greater love than one who lays his life down for a brother. I will lay down my life gladly for my brother Jesus. I am sure that day is approaching. The Matthew-Shepherd Hate Crimes Bill is one step in that direction… and if it comes, then it is because God deems it and ordains it to be so. I rest in Him and Him alone.
You said: “My warning to you is this: you are bringing any discrimination or oppression, perceived or actual, on yourselves. (Still sounding familiar? That’s right, this has all been said to our side for a long time, now. Funny where you find truth, isn’t it?) It isn’t right; it isn’t justified, but just like homophobia and bigotry, its a reality and its not going away, especially if you keep poking it with a stick.”
Discrimination – it is always wrong to hurt others based on anything. But if you consider preaching against the sin of homosexuality “homophobia” then fine… whatever. I am really not scared of homosexuals. Three of my choir directors were people who chose homosexual lifestyles. I wasn’t scared of them. I was against their choice of lifestyle because of what the future held for them. It is similar to taking poison away from a baby… you do it because it brings death. I preach and teach against this lifestyle because it brings death. You may not realize it now, but the wrath of God is coming and you have time to get right with God… why chance this.
Language is powerful for it shapes our minds. You say homophobia and bigotry, and I say love and obedience of Faith. Will you really call someone who is trying to keep you alive a bigot? Don’t you think that is warped thinking? Would I look at my doctor who is trying to get rid of my Cancer and say, “You cancer-phobe… stop making me try to conform!”
What is going to happen after you read this? You will probably think, “You are calling homosexuality a disease… well you’re the disease… blah blah blah…” What I am trying to point out is that Homosexual Behavior is SIN and needs to be repented of. The reason it is sin is because God tells us it is. But you want your sin and you want to live in rebellion and I am pleading with you out of genuine piety to give it up and join me as a righteous person in Christ by believing in Him and His resurrection, calling Him Lord.
You said: “Marriage will become an exclusively religious institution in the U.S.; but it still won’t achieve your objective.”
Marriage has always been and always will be exculisively ordained by the Creator of this World. Marriage was created by God and how dare anyone pervert it into something that it is not or should not be. Homosexuality is sin and perversion and according to God, an abomination. So of course, you may call homosexual marriage, “marriage”, but in the eyes of God it will never be. Leviticus 18 and Romans 1 and others… Don’t rebel against God; submit to Him and He will fogive you.
You said: “There are no small number of churches that will marry homosexuals. What a waste of time and “love,” and all by putting us on the “slippery slope” to eroding the equal protection for everyone….legal protections you are too dim or too fanatical to realize actually PROTECT your freedom of religion.”
These churches are not the true bride… any “church” or “bishop” or whatever that marries two like gender individuals are not bought by Christ’s blood for they do not uphold His commandments or His teachings… you will know them by their fruits… Jesus said, “If you love me you will obey my commandments.” How is homosexuality obedient to Christ? It isn’t. It is more like a license to do whatever they want to do… stop following false teachers who will lead you astray… follow the Good Shepherd who will lead you away from sin and into God’s loving arms of forgiveness.
You said: “you are too dim or too fanatical to realize actually PROTECT your freedom of religion.”
Obviously we are both of these things don’t you think? You are dim not to get what I am telling you, or you get it and reject it. You are fanatical about what you want to see in this society…just as I supposedly am, according to you. I do get what you are saying: You want equal rights and status as same sex married couples, equal protection under the law. I agree that people should never hurt, mame, kill, etc anyone for any reason. However, marriage of homosexuals and homosexuality is not a valid lifestyle, but a sinful one. What are we to do? Facilitate your debauchery and pat you on the back as you degrade our society and bring down multiple thousand year institutions and have you go wondefully along to an eternity in Hell… that is not what we want to see. What we want to see is evil restrained and people delivered from this miserable lifestyle. We want to see people reject sin and come into an everlasting relationship with Jesus.
We will fight… and we might lose the battle here in this day and time… but before God we will win the war of faithfulness to His Word and to His commands to teach people to obey Christ and win them to Himself.
Read what I said. You are a valuable and wonderfully created person in the image of God. Christ states that people are more valuable than many sparrows… but He also states that people are evil. He came to deliver us from evil… and homosexuality is a very dark spiritual evil, just like lying, gossip, slander, etc. God did not give us individual rights as we think of, He gave us the right to become children of God through the blood of Christ. Won’t you believe and put off this old self? Come on! What have you got to lose? You will have me as a good friend and Christ as your brother and Savior. I am not against you. I am for you… I am against a lifestyle that will only bring death to you in the end. That is tough love baby. I will confidently stop here.
Blessings,
RAP
The senate voted today; you lost. Enjoy your martyrdom.
\
Your patently false, utterly moronic, and shockingly callous pronouncement that LGBT aren’t discriminated against (when we can be fired from our jobs, denied housing & public accommodations in 34 states just because we’re PERCEIVED as being gay, whether confirmed or not) is just sickening. Christians murdered, raped, and stole from sea to shining sea to establish this country in their god’s image, yet you’re the oppressed ones? You admit that you’re a minority, yet every politician in the country panders to your mental illness to the degree that only ONE elected representative in this country will dare say they’re atheist?
If you were here in front of me, I’d certainly hasten your martyrdom by one more day for that twisted remark. Since you admit that you will disobey the law for your own purposes, I will make it my personal cause in life to see you imprisoned. You will feel the pain you and your sickening brood have caused for centuries.
Get ready to suck Jesus’ cock, asshole; your day has arrived and you asked for it 100%.
I will try to be kind-hearted friend. But you make it difficult.
You said: “Your patently false, utterly moronic, and shockingly callous pronouncement that LGBT aren’t discriminated against (when we can be fired from our jobs, denied housing & public accommodations in 34 states just because we’re PERCEIVED as being gay, whether confirmed or not) is just sickening. Christians murdered, raped, and stole from sea to shining sea to establish this country in their god’s image, yet you’re the oppressed ones? You admit that you’re a minority, yet every politician in the country panders to your mental illness to the degree that only ONE elected representative in this country will dare say they’re atheist?”
I again am not your adversary. You are obviously against me… and Jesus… from your overly loving remarks for me and my beliefs and my brothers and sisters in the Faith… it is obvious you have much hate for us… and yet you want an America that is “tolerant.” Plainly, you just want an America that will not call what you do sin. People who stand in front of you, you will jail and kill… because you have hate in your heart. What comes out of your mouth reveals your heart. You don’t want an America that is free, just free of Christians who will stand for morality. I don’t see any Christians doing what you have claimed you want to do to us… ever. People who are True Disciples of Christ do not hurt others, but peacefully demonstrate and pass legislation to restrain evil.
I find it contradictory that you would accuse so-called Christians of raping and murdering for the founding of this nation in one breath, say that Christians didn’t found this nation in another breath, and then call for the things you are against what you claimed “Christians” did saying that you want me imprisoned and want me martyred in front of you. Interesting… walking contradictions. You, obviously not a person of peace, would strike people down for their beliefs and their love for Christ… and then do it accusing us of the same. How utterly contradictory and hypocritical. You are standing in sinking sand….
When you turn on the TV it is Christians that are made fun of and mocked all day long in the media… it is the Ten Commandments which have been placed in every court room and classroom, now taken out… it is prayer which has been shunned in our schools. Christianity is gone in America. We know this… but we will live for Christ none-the-less. I desire to see you find Christ and have Him give you a heart that is for Him alone.
Laws that are contrary to God are not laws. They are man-made… and I will never stand for a law that praises sin or panders to sin or upholds sin or facilitates sin… which is why I am against the homosexual agenda and against the abortionist agenda… and any agenda that is contrary to God’s Law.
Immoral Laws are Immoral… just like the oppression of blacks by so-called “Christians”… but I would not uphold a law that hurts people for the sake of hurting people. I am against people hurting people because they choose sinful behavior, like homosexuality. However, Homosexuality is not a class of people… it is a behavior that one chooses… just like adultery or fornication. It is SIN. This is why making legal, “homosexual marriage” is awful and I would vote against it every time… no matter how many times it came in front of a legislative body. This is based on the Bible.. which you reject, but it is nonetheless there and people believe in it and therefore will go against the sinful lifestyles that are plaguing our nation. We believe that as sin progresses, we will see God’s hand continually removed from our nation and it will fall. We don’t break God’s Laws, they break us.
I am done talking to you. I am surprised at the ease of your comfort with the name of Christ and how it does not bother you that He saw you write that. You need Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. This argument is over as far as I am concerned. I dust off my sandles and walk to another who will embrace Jesus. I pray God will open your eyes.
You can have the last word if you choose, I will not respond.
For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. 5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, 6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete. (2 Corinthians 10.4-6)
22 So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. (2 Timothy 2.22-23)
RAP